This string, which initiated from this article and the ensuing discussion, is an opportunity for us to discuss various approaches to marriage and why one is superior to another ... or maybe it's to voice opinions as to why there is no superior approach, or to suggest that marriage itself is pointless.
So, with that start, let's talk.
the purpose of marriage
As spydervik suggests here, maybe the best place to start this discussion is on the purpose of marriage.
In previous generations the purposes of marriage were rather clear, however, in today's society the answer, by and large isn't all that obvious because marriage has been deconstructed. As Sara Sarasohn writes in the Washington Post:
So, what's the purpose of marriage? While those of us who are Christian can quickly point to Bible passages, I'd like to take Rev Bob's recommendation and talk about God's "why" behind the Scripture over the actual "what".
Based on the original article, two thoughts I'd put forth are raising children (based on the Chinese adoption policy rather than Genesis 1:28) and the stability of society as a whole (which was Caesar's concern).
Adding on to this second point, I'll reference my neighborhood in Denver, Capitol Hill. For those of you who aren't familiar with the neighborhood, it's been compared by the New York Times to the East Village in Manhattan before the East Village was gentrified. You could also say that I live in the musical (and movie) RENT.
One of the ongoing struggles of the neighborhood is that, because of the highly transient population (almost 80% single and 80% renters), it's become a place where criminals have no fear about conducting their business in an open air environment. So, since married people are more likely to own their residence, are less likely to move, and therefore have a greater vested interest in their community, it seems that one of the purposes of marriage (in some form), would be the stability of a community.
In addition, since investment in a community increases when you have children (safety, schools, etc), I'd say families with children furthers the stability of a community purpose.
Thoughts?
OK, you said... "I'd like to
OK, you said...
"I'd like to take Rev Bob's recommendation and talk about God's "why" behind the Scripture over the actual "what".
then you add...
"Based on the original article, two thoughts I'd put forth are raising children (based on the Chinese adoption policy rather than Genesis 1:28) and the stability of society as a whole (which was Caesar's concern)."
Is it "God's 'why'" (spiritual) or "Chinese adoption policy" (cultural)!
I'd like to know if we're determining purpose based on a cultural or spiritual/religious framework. If it's both then let's say that too.
Secondly, if you are saying that marriage is about stability (community and family) neither of those are sexuality determinate.
framework thoughts
Thanks for asking me to clarify where I'm coming from, it will certainly help in the conversation.
I believe that God is behind the world that we live in and, like any machine, it's built to work a certain way. Moreover, I believe that we, as people, are often capable of observing what works best and, essentially, figuring out how the machine optimally runs. In other words, sure each culture and religion can make up their own rules if they want to, but, pragmatically speaking, just how functional are those rule when compared to the way things really work?
So, as a very basic example, we've come to the conclusion, as a society, that it's best not to randomly kill people. The world just works better that way. Sure there are religious and cultural motivations for it, but, in the end, the religious and cultural claims flow out of something bigger ... it's just not good to randomly kill people.
As I think about marriage, it's something that isn't just a product of religion or cultural, but it's something bigger that breaks beyond religious and cultural bounds. As something that transcends, what is the purpose of marriage in the broader human experience and in what context is marriage most functional?
sexuality determinate
You're right, they aren't, but isn't your suggested goal at this point not one of same-sex marriage but one of the purpose of marriage? It seems to me that until we establish the purpose of marriage, then we can begin the discussion of what results in the healthiest communities and families.
Church marriage
To ground this discussion historically, we should all spend some time with Augustine's On the Goods of Marriage, even if we end up disagreeing with him.
Here is a link:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1309.htm
Esentially, Augustine sees marriage as a good for these reasons:
(1) Procreation
(2) Natural joy in being with the other sex (especially for old folk who can't bear children anymore) (implicit here is that it helps train people for righteous living)
(3) Joy of sex
(4) Prevents fornication
(5) Builds up love and charity between people
This should be a launching pad to discuss the goods of marriage.
An interesting post on why the church should get out of the marriage business.
http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/
July 9, 2008 post
don't do church marriages
Interesting article there (so it can be found in a few weeks, here's the direct to the article link: http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2008/07/against-marriage-or-why-churc...) ... I didn't do an intense reading, but enough to get the drift. Here's my approach when it comes to these issues:
1) If I don't get to do pre-marital counseling, I won't marry somebody.
2) If the couple isn't Christian, I won't do the wedding in a church or wearing church garb. Rather, I offer to be a personalized justice of the peace. If they have issues here, I have no problem telling them that a wedding in a church declares that God is central in your relationship and, if he's not, you'd be a hypocrite to have your wedding there.
So, why still do weddings for those who aren't Christian?
1) It's a great opportunity for me to spend a lot of time with a couple and talk about a plethora of issues that are central to their lives ... and quite often, to engage in faith-based conversations with people who, otherwise, wouldn't be open.
2) As someone who isn't a fan of divorce, it gives me an opportunity to love my neighbor by helping them establish healthy patterns early on.
Thoughts?